The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Seventh Day (2nd series), leg behind head..

Patanjali

*Three posts today, this one another 'Dear Nancy...' post and the full 45 minute 1938 Krishnamacharya movie.


First the intro bit again...
A series of posts exploring the 'Ashtanga Rishi Series' mentioned at the end of Nancy Gilgoff's Article (see link below) and outlined in a reply by David Willams on his forum below (the headings in block capitals are mine).

I'll be starting each of these posts with this same introduction/reminder of the context.

'Originally there were five series: Primary, Intermediate, Advanced A, Advanced B, and the fifth was the “rishi” series.

Nancy Gilgoff 'Yoga as it was'

Ashtanga Rishi Approach

'...Doing a practice of 10 postures for up to 50 breaths is a method of preparing for "advanced series" after one has learned 1st and 2nd. It can be done once or twice a week. One does the "salutations" and then starts going thru the series, holding each posture for as long as comfortably possible. Notice which postures could be held for 50 breaths. The next time you practice this way, the postures which you could hold for 50 are omitted and new ones are added at the end. One gradually works thru the series, dropping and adding asanas, still doing 10 asanas per session. I have gone all the way thru 1st and 2nd this way several times over the years and have found it beneficial.

Ashtanga Rishi Series

'Then, once one has mastered all of the asanas, one can practice "the rishi series", the most advanced practice. One does the 10 postures that one intuits will be the most beneficial and appropriate for that day, holding each posture for up to 50 comfortable breaths'.

http://tinyurl.com/7wq66bs

Ashtanga Rishi Blog post series

Ashtanga Rishi series

Exploring the ashtanga Rishi series / approach

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, first day Paschimottanasana to Janu sirsasana A

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, second day  Janu Sirsasana B to Navasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, third day Bhuja pindasana to badha konasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fourth day Upavishta konasana to Supta bandhasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fifth day Pasasana to Kapotasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, sixth day Supta vajrasana to Ardha Matsyendrasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Seventh Day  Eka pada sirsasana to Tittibhasana C

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Eighth day to seven headstands

Rishi series made from asana named after Rishi An alternative take on the Rishi series

See also Srivatsa Ramaswami's December 2012 newsletter for more on the Rishis

The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Seventh Day (2nd series).

Sury A x3 / Sury  B x 3

Ardha badha padma paschimottanasana (25  breaths each side) Added this as a preparation for the LBH asana to come.

Eka pada Sirsasana A & B (25 breaths each in A and B and each side). Spent a little extra time trying to get a deeper placement in preparation for the longer stay. Haven't practiced 4th series for a while so my Buddhasana has left me and I can't get my leg as far down the shoulder as I used to. Eka pada A was comfortable enough (especially on the second side) but B is tough as your having your face squished between your knee and the foot behind your head, more irritating than anything else. on the second side, I included a quick Purvottanasana between A and b to stretch out the neck. Fifty breaths in A would be OK with improved leg placement but I'm not sure about B.

Dwi pada sirsasana (25 breaths) Still haven't worked out how Sharath manages to keep his legs so far apart on-off the neck, i think it's something to do with the placement of the second foot as if he gets it furth down the first leg, I have a go at it here but still haven't managed it. the 25 breaths felt OK but I'm hunched not looking up and seem to get a little more hunched as time goes on.

Yoga Nidrasana (50 breaths). I was looking forward to this, it's sleeping yogi, yu should be able to stay for a considerable time. It felt comfortable. I was expecting circulation problems but it was fine and I could probably have stayed for twice as long. dristi was the back of my eyelids.

Tittibhasana A (25 breaths). I normally point my legs up higher for this but went for a more horizontal position thinking it would be better for the wrists. As Arm balances go it's quite secure perhaps because you have the counterweight of your feet and backside, could probably stay longer but 25 seems plenty for an arm balance. the Titthibhasana series has always been a weak area for me, haven't worked out to jump my arms as far around my arm as I'd like.

Tittibhasana B (50 breaths). Fifty, but short ones. Don't think I've ever posted a video of this one, bit embarrassed or at least self-conscious about it, have never seemed to be able to straighten my legs enough and get my body through. So I was surprised to notice halfway through that I was pretty deep and had a very clear view of my ...mula bandha, perhaps the long stays in the previous postures have paid off. Again, had expected circulation problems because of the bind but either I've worked it out now or it's not such an issue in this particular bind.

Tittibhasana B walk (50 steps). Was feeling playful, how can you not with this charming but ridiculous  asana so went for fifty steps, ten up ten down etc.

Tittibhasana C (50 breaths). My least favorite asana in any series, give me 50 breaths in Kapo any day.

Sarvangasana (50 breaths).

Sirsasana (50 breaths).
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To reiterate the plan. The idea is to run through the Primary and Second series with the Ashtanga breath, equal inhalation and exhalation, take a note of how long I'm staying in the asana and then revisit the asana with the Vinyasa krama breathing. Here I'll reduce the number of breaths by lengthening the inhalation and especially the exhalation and employing breath retention where appropriate. So the same time in the pose but perhaps half or a quarter the number of breaths. This seems a more interesting approach to me than just staying in the asana for 25-50 breaths, if we're going to be in the posture that long it seems to make sense to explore the breath as fully as possible.


UPDATE
Not sure what it was about that practice this morning, something to do with the foot pressing against the back of my head but I've been feeling triply all day. Pranayama was buzzy, meditation Janaesque and I had a craving for a coke afterwards that had me heading off up the road to get a caffeine fix and something cold and fizzy .

Just finished my evening practice, 2nd series up Supya ardha matsyendrasana, some more pranayama and a short sit and still ....tingly. What's that all about.

Dear Nancy.... head up/down, jalandhara bandha, 'guruji said...'

Another note from Nancy Gilgoff following on from the previous posts. Earlier we had discussed the head being up or down. It's down for example in Krishnamacharya's Yoga Makaranda and Pattabhi Jois has his head down in the forward bends in Yoga Mala though Sharath has his head up looking at his toes, padhayoragrai. In Ramaswami, representing Krishnamacharya's later teaching, the head tends to be down in forward bends, (forehead to the knee as in Nancy's description below) in most asana in fact (In Ramaswami's teaching) the chin is tilted slightly down,  not full jalandhara bandha but perhaps a hint of it. However in Ramaswami's teaching  Ujayii breathing is employed and retention after the exhalation is often applied in asana thus the availability of jalansdhara (some postures it would be engaged more fully). Ujayii is also referred too in Yoga Makaranda.

That's the background to our conversation/email's see the posts below.

Dear Nancy the breath in 73
Nancy Gilgoff Article 'Yoga as it was'
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Hi Nancy, Can't thank you enough for your reply, really clears some things up for me. I think now that perhaps your right that it's a mistake to compare Ashtanga to Yoga Makaranda too much and yet it does make one wonder why they are so different and how we account for that. Perhaps the clue is in the 'breath follows movement', with such a flowing practice maybe it would be a mistake to include breath retention plus there's the need to keep the energy up so equal inhalation and exhalation and again the head up to maximise the inhalation all help to carry you through the practice. Guruji seems to be more of an innovator than I imagined.... or just, perhaps a VERY good teacher.
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aloha anthony....one more comment from me......guruji always taught me to go into and come out of the forward bends, with my head down so my forehead is the first thing that touches my leg....the neck is not straight unless it can slide out on the leg.....the dristi changes to nose if the head stays tucked. no jalandhara bandha does not mean the head is up. this is a misunderstanding of the method.  after the forehead touches the leg, the chin can slide out but always stays connected to the legs. this method develops uddiyana bandha very naturally.
there are MANY different yoga methods.....with different breathing methods. each has it's reason for being the way it is taught.....to achieve a particular state of being the methods will vary. some hold the breath, some use open mouthed, others closed mouth. same for eyes....guruji taught to keep them open....other practices keep them shut.   so how one is practiced depends on what the practice is meant to achieve. mixing them up, in my opinion, is what is causing the confusion amongst the yogis of today. so it is very good that you want to know the origins of this practice and what we are wanting to achieve through doing it.  guruji said he thought this method was the fastest to attain good health which helps us in the other aspects of practice (pranayama, meditation) and in our life. 
it is meant to heal the body so it is not a hindrance to advanced practices......n

The full 45 minute Krishnamacharya (and Iyengar) 1938 silent Newsreel plus , jumping in and out of Vatyanasana.

Nice to sees new version of this in full (Thank you Tom and Youtube for allowing longer videos, up untill now it's been in five sections). Are there some bits that I don't remember from the chopped up version? Iyenger jumping straight into Vatyanasana for example at 29:09, at first I thought he was going for lotus but no.

Got to try that, the things Krishnamacharya used to teach those boys, no doubt for all the demonstrations they used to do. As with many postures and transitions (in the Advanced series for example, supposedly intended for demonstration only), practicing them daily would probably be too hard on the knees, joints but for the occasional demonstration, acceptable perhaps with enough training and preparation. Unfortunately these days, third is the new second and fourth the new third, many students are now practicing advanced postures daily, I wonder if this is wise.

Enjoy

Had to give it go, first side is just about OK but the second side a struggle, don't manage to get the foot high enough into the groin, cute party trick though, nice play a bit after such a heavy practice this morning.

This is a 'freestyle' approach to Vatayanasana As opposed to this one which is closer to the Ashtanga approach 'Working on getting my vatyanasana back'.

Should also add that it's perhaps something to think twice about before trying at home as your messing with your knees. I've spent quite some time playing with the hands free getting into lotus and hop to lotus jump through,

UPDATE
And on a similar theme, the jump in and out of padmasana

The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Sixth Day (2nd series).

Vashistha

Everybody gets this is an experiment right? Still doing my regular straight Ashtanga practice in the evenings, this is temporarily taking the place of my morning VK practice thus the VK influence. Not suggesting anyone should replace their practice with the rishi approach but rather that it might be interesting to explore, extracurricular as it were. If not ten asana then perhaps five or three.


It's looking at what is and perhaps isn't doable or advisable, what modifications might be called for, which asana benefit from a longer stay and which don't, what a longer stay shows up in a posture, in your technique, circulation issues for example. 


'I have gone all the way thru 1st and 2nd this way several times over the years and have found it beneficial.' David Williams


First the intro bit again...
A series of posts exploring the 'Ashtanga Rishi Series' mentioned at the end of Nancy Gilgoff's Article (see link below) and outlined in a reply by David Willams on his forum below ( the headings in block capitals are mine.

I'll be starting each of these posts with this same introduction/reminder of the context.

'Originally there were five series: Primary, Intermediate, Advanced A, Advanced B, and the fifth was the “rishi” series'.

Nancy Gilgoff 'Yoga as it was'

Ashtanga Rishi Approach

'...Doing a practice of 10 postures for up to 50 breaths is a method of preparing for "advanced series" after one has learned 1st and 2nd. It can be done once or twice a week. One does the "salutations" and then starts going thru the series, holding each posture for as long as comfortably possible. Notice which postures could be held for 50 breaths. The next time you practice this way, the postures which you could hold for 50 are omitted and new ones are added at the end. One gradually works thru the series, dropping and adding asanas, still doing 10 asanas per session. I have gone all the way thru 1st and 2nd this way several times over the years and have found it beneficial.

Ashtanga Rishi Series

'Then, once one has mastered all of the asanas, one can practice "the rishi series", the most advanced practice. One does the 10 postures that one intuits will be the most beneficial and appropriate for that day, holding each posture for up to 50 comfortable breaths'.

http://tinyurl.com/7wq66bs

The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Sixth Day (2nd series).

Sury A x3 / Sury B x 3

Ardha badha padma paschimottanasana (25 breaths each side) Included this as a warm-up for Supta vajrasna

Supta vajrasana (25 breaths) Dropped back and stayed for 15 breaths but had to come up due to the circulation in my arms being cut off, went back down again managed only five and then again for five more, circulation is a real problem with the bind, might be something to do with dropping back over the bolster.

Bakasana (25 breaths) Kind of a cross between the squeezing the thighs against the outside of the arms and the balancing approach wanted to make the most of both techniques so the squeezing in the beginning to take some of the weight off the arms and then just balancing as my legs became too tired to squeeze. Arms aren't as straight as in the regular version. if I was still doing 3rd then I might be strong enough for fifty breaths but at what cost to the wrists, not sure of the value of long stays in the arm balances. 
Nicer floaty entry HERE, name of the game in this one is conserving energy, Sharath is excellent at that by the way, check out his Primary DVD in my post yesterday morning.

Bharadvajrasana (25 breaths each side) Was looking forward to this one, nice asana for a longer stay, could have stayed for fifty on each side if I had more time.

Ardha Matsyendrasana (25 breaths ) As Bharadvajrasana above.

Pincha Mayurasana (15 breaths) Wanted to leave all the leg behind head postures for tomorrow and thought I'd do a trial run of Pincha M., hard, only managed 15 breaths before I dropped out of it.

Sarvangasana (50 breaths)

Salabhasana A & B (25 breaths in each) As a counter to the shoulder stand. Re recent discussion in comments to day 5, I'm approaching a long stay in an asana differently than in the short stay, think 100m and 1500 or 5000m, still running but different approach. These salabhasana are less ...engaged (see HERE for my regular Salabhasana and the new approach I'm having success with lately), we're in for the long haul. Also, I use the Vinyasa Krama drishti for this asana here (looking straight ahead), don't see the point of looking up and squishing the back of the neck for five breaths let alone 25.

Sirsasana (50 breaths)

Pranayama.

---------------------------------------------


To reiterate the plan. The idea is to run through the Primary and Second series with the Ashtanga breath, equal inhalation and exhalation, take a note of how long I'm staying in the asana and then revisit the asana with the Vinyasa krama breathing. Here I'll reduce the number of breaths by lengthening the inhalation and especially the exhalation and employing breath retention where appropriate. So the same time in the pose but perhaps half or a quarter the number of breaths. This seems a more interesting approach to me than just staying in the asana for 25-50 breaths, if we're going to be in the posture that long it seems to make sense to explore the breath as fully as possible.

Ashtanga Rishi Blog post series

Ashtanga Rishi series

Exploring the ashtanga Rishi series / approach

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, first day Paschimottanasana to Janu sirsasana A

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, second day  Janu Sirsasana B to Navasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, third day Bhuja pindasana to badha konasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fourth day Upavishta konasana to Supta bandhasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fifth day Pasasana to Kapotasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, sixth day Supta vajrasana to Ardha Matsyendrasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Seventh Day  Eka pada sirsasana to Tittibhasana C

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Eighth day to seven headstands

Rishi series made from asana named after Rishi An alternative take on the Rishi series

See also Srivatsa Ramaswami's December 2012 newsletter for more on the Rishis

Ashtanga Rishi Approach fifth day (2nd series)

Vyasa

I know, I know I said I was going to take a break from this for a couple of weeks and work on the Vinyasa Krama version instead.

The thing is, the Vinyasa Krama 'Rishi approach' is to do the asana and then do it again for the same amount of time but with, say, half the number of breaths. The idea is to use fewer and fewer breaths but also to keep them smooth and steady. So it's useful doing the Ashtanga version first and getting an idea of how long fifty breaths take so that I can then stay in the same asana for the same amount of time but start reducing the breaths, lengthening the exhalation, including retention where appropriate, etc.

Even if the Rishi series/approach turns out to be a myth.

I kind of like the VK version better, feel there's more of a point to the long stays when your working with the breath, just staying for 50 breaths seems more like tapas, OK perhaps I get a boon from the gods and the poses do open a little more but it seems a wasted opportunity.

Anyway a reminder of the Rishi approach...

First the intro bit again...

A series of posts exploring the the 'Ashtanga Rishi Series' mentioned at the end of Nancy Gilgoff's Article (see link below) and outlined in a reply by David Willams on his forum below ( the headings in block capitals are mine.

I'll be starting each of these posts with this same introduction/reminder of the the context.

'Originally there were five series: Primary, Intermediate, Advanced A, Advanced B, and the fifth was the “rishi” series'.

Nancy Gilgoff 'Yoga as it was'

Ashtanga Rishi Approach

'...Doing a practice of 10 postures for up to 50 breaths is a method of preparing for "advanced series" after one has learned 1st and 2nd. It can be done once or twice a week. One does the "salutations" and then starts going thru the series, holding each posture for as long as comfortably possible. Notice which postures could be held for 50 breaths. The next time you practice this way, the postures which you could hold for 50 are omitted and new ones are added at the end. One gradually works thru the series, dropping and adding asanas, still doing 10 asanas per session. I have gone all the way thru 1st and 2nd this way several times over the years and have found it beneficial.

Ashtanga Rishi Series

'Then, once one has mastered all of the asanas, one can practice "the rishi series", the most advanced practice. One does the 10 postures that one intuits will be the most beneficial and appropriate for that day, holding each posture for up to 50 comfortable breaths'.

http://tinyurl.com/7wq66bs

The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Fifth Day (2nd series).

Sury A x 3 / Sury B x 3

Pasasana (25 breaths each side) the First side was OK, just made 25 but was slipping off one knee after 23. On the second leg I placed a towel over my leg for grip. Needed to really lay on the bandhas to anchor me, can't imagine doing fifty a side.

Krounchasana (25 breaths on each side). Nice, gets easier, and settle into the posture more as it goes on.

Salabhasana A (50 breaths). Both A and B were OK with the pelvic tilt engaged, really trying to push down and up through the mat. Used the belly button holding a pea technique as well (no not a real one). these techniques have been revolutionary in my approach to these bow sequence postures, much easier, makes the long stay possible and more of a stretch too, quite proud of my Salabhasana's now.

Salabhasana B (25 breaths). See A. above

Bhekasana (25 breaths). As Salabhasana A and B above with the pelvic tilt and pea techniques but I can't say I was pressing my feet down equally throughout, relaxed them a couple of times.

Dhanurasana (25 breaths). Bit lame, the will was weak and I baled after 25 breaths, fifty is possible with the above approach I think, perhaps if I did it first

Parsva Dhanurasana (25 breaths on each side). Took both sides easy I have to admit as i knew kapo was coming up and I wanted to relax my quads a little.

Ustrasana (25 breaths). Fifty is doable but I wasn't sure how the kapo would go so wanted to save myself a little for that, nice to spend the time working on the pelvic tilt and pushing hips forward.

Kapotasana (25 breaths). And so Kapo which was hanging over the whole practice as ever, the elephant in the room. I'd done a trial run of this earlier in the week but had only held the side of my feet. Perhaps the good work in Ustrasana on the tilt and getting the hips forward allowed me to catch my heels, not from the air as I used to be able to do but then I haven't worked at kapo much for some time.

The long hold was difficult, no panic and I managed to keep my breath regular but I started to get all tingly and a little numb. Couldn't think of any way I could be cutting off circulation as in Marichi D say, so figured it was psychological and stuck with it. Was tempted to carry on past 25, to 40 perhaps and then see but wanted to be sure of coming up so settled on 25 and just a couple of breaths in B. 

Interesting experience though, did Iyengar REALLY stay 15 minutes in kapo? And what about that picture of Krishnamacharya standing on the young Patthabi Jois while he was in Kapo, that was in the 30's took forever to set up a photo in those days.

Sarvangasana (50 breaths).

Sirsasana (50 breaths).

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The next section of the 2nd series should be OK, Dwi pada Sirsaasana is where I expect problems but that would be on the following day, the 7th day. Whether I explore that will depend on whether we manage to work out Sharath's Dwi pada secret.

Ashtanga Rishi Blog post series

Ashtanga Rishi series

Exploring the ashtanga Rishi series / approach

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, first day Paschimottanasana to Janu sirsasana A

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, second day  Janu Sirsasana B to Navasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, third day Bhuja pindasana to badha konasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fourth day Upavishta konasana to Supta bandhasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fifth day Pasasana to Kapotasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, sixth day Supta vajrasana to Ardha Matsyendrasana

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Seventh Day  Eka pada sirsasana to Tittibhasana C

Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Eighth day to seven headstands

Rishi series made from asana named after Rishi An alternative take on the Rishi series

See also Srivatsa Ramaswami's December 2012 newsletter for more on the Rishis