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| Vyasa |
The thing is, the Vinyasa Krama 'Rishi approach' is to do the asana and then do it again for the same amount of time but with, say, half the number of breaths. The idea is to use fewer and fewer breaths but also to keep them smooth and steady. So it's useful doing the Ashtanga version first and getting an idea of how long fifty breaths take so that I can then stay in the same asana for the same amount of time but start reducing the breaths, lengthening the exhalation, including retention where appropriate, etc.
Even if the Rishi series/approach turns out to be a myth.
I kind of like the VK version better, feel there's more of a point to the long stays when your working with the breath, just staying for 50 breaths seems more like tapas, OK perhaps I get a boon from the gods and the poses do open a little more but it seems a wasted opportunity.
Anyway a reminder of the Rishi approach...
First the intro bit again...
A series of posts exploring the the 'Ashtanga Rishi Series' mentioned at the end of Nancy Gilgoff's Article (see link below) and outlined in a reply by David Willams on his forum below ( the headings in block capitals are mine.
I'll be starting each of these posts with this same introduction/reminder of the the context.
'Originally there were five series: Primary, Intermediate, Advanced A, Advanced B, and the fifth was the “rishi” series'.
Ashtanga Rishi Approach
'...Doing a practice of 10 postures for up to 50 breaths is a method of preparing for "advanced series" after one has learned 1st and 2nd. It can be done once or twice a week. One does the "salutations" and then starts going thru the series, holding each posture for as long as comfortably possible. Notice which postures could be held for 50 breaths. The next time you practice this way, the postures which you could hold for 50 are omitted and new ones are added at the end. One gradually works thru the series, dropping and adding asanas, still doing 10 asanas per session. I have gone all the way thru 1st and 2nd this way several times over the years and have found it beneficial.
Ashtanga Rishi Series
'Then, once one has mastered all of the asanas, one can practice "the rishi series", the most advanced practice. One does the 10 postures that one intuits will be the most beneficial and appropriate for that day, holding each posture for up to 50 comfortable breaths'.
The Ashtanga Rishi approach, Fifth Day (2nd series).
Sury A x 3 / Sury B x 3
Pasasana (25 breaths each side) the First side was OK, just made 25 but was slipping off one knee after 23. On the second leg I placed a towel over my leg for grip. Needed to really lay on the bandhas to anchor me, can't imagine doing fifty a side.
Krounchasana (25 breaths on each side). Nice, gets easier, and settle into the posture more as it goes on.
Salabhasana A (50 breaths). Both A and B were OK with the pelvic tilt engaged, really trying to push down and up through the mat. Used the belly button holding a pea technique as well (no not a real one). these techniques have been revolutionary in my approach to these bow sequence postures, much easier, makes the long stay possible and more of a stretch too, quite proud of my Salabhasana's now.
Salabhasana B (25 breaths). See A. above
Bhekasana (25 breaths). As Salabhasana A and B above with the pelvic tilt and pea techniques but I can't say I was pressing my feet down equally throughout, relaxed them a couple of times.
Dhanurasana (25 breaths). Bit lame, the will was weak and I baled after 25 breaths, fifty is possible with the above approach I think, perhaps if I did it first
Parsva Dhanurasana (25 breaths on each side). Took both sides easy I have to admit as i knew kapo was coming up and I wanted to relax my quads a little.
Ustrasana (25 breaths). Fifty is doable but I wasn't sure how the kapo would go so wanted to save myself a little for that, nice to spend the time working on the pelvic tilt and pushing hips forward.
Kapotasana (25 breaths). And so Kapo which was hanging over the whole practice as ever, the elephant in the room. I'd done a trial run of this earlier in the week but had only held the side of my feet. Perhaps the good work in Ustrasana on the tilt and getting the hips forward allowed me to catch my heels, not from the air as I used to be able to do but then I haven't worked at kapo much for some time.
The long hold was difficult, no panic and I managed to keep my breath regular but I started to get all tingly and a little numb. Couldn't think of any way I could be cutting off circulation as in Marichi D say, so figured it was psychological and stuck with it. Was tempted to carry on past 25, to 40 perhaps and then see but wanted to be sure of coming up so settled on 25 and just a couple of breaths in B.
Interesting experience though, did Iyengar REALLY stay 15 minutes in kapo? And what about that picture of Krishnamacharya standing on the young Patthabi Jois while he was in Kapo, that was in the 30's took forever to set up a photo in those days.
Sarvangasana (50 breaths).
Sirsasana (50 breaths).
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The next section of the 2nd series should be OK, Dwi pada Sirsaasana is where I expect problems but that would be on the following day, the 7th day. Whether I explore that will depend on whether we manage to work out Sharath's Dwi pada secret.
Ashtanga Rishi Blog post series
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, first day Paschimottanasana to Janu sirsasana A
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, second day Janu Sirsasana B to Navasana
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, third day Bhuja pindasana to badha konasana
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fourth day Upavishta konasana to Supta bandhasana
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, fifth day Pasasana to Kapotasana
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, sixth day Supta vajrasana to Ardha Matsyendrasana
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Seventh Day Eka pada sirsasana to Tittibhasana C
Ashtanga Rishi Approach, Eighth day to seven headstands
Rishi series made from asana named after Rishi An alternative take on the Rishi series
See also Srivatsa Ramaswami's December 2012 newsletter for more on the Rishis
17 comments:
I dont worry I totally expected you would carry on, hee hee... I wonder now, all that ime in Kapo, scary stuff... I would say tingly would come... and as per P Jois with the big K on top of him... he must have been some strong kid! I am enjoying these experiences G, probably not as much as you... really interesting to watch from a distance as I have not completed second yet...
If I were doing shalabasana and dhanurasana correctly, there is NO WAY I could hold for that long. Therefore, I suspect you are doing 'lazy' versions which are counter-productive. Are your legs really completely engaged and completely straight and knees pressed together the whole time in shalabasana, for example? knees together in dhanurasana?
Just some things to ask yourself......
Kapo's different, because it's all about relaxing into it....
I'm sure you could do it Susan, comes down to technique, I have a post on it here
http://grimmly2007.blogspot.com/2012/01/tucking-tailbone-in-salabhasana-and.html
Of course, the Ashtanga versions of Salabhasana are the lazy versions, in Vinyasa Krama we have the full expression
http://grimmly2007.blogspot.com/2012/01/tucking-tailbone-in-salabhasana-and.html
Bit tricky keeping the knees together in the fourth one though : )
Pictures and video's in that last link are a bit old, before I came across the pelvic tilt/pea techniques.
I know all about tucking the tailbone and don't need a lesson in technique, LOL.
What I'm saying is, most people think their legs are straight and together when they are not. I've had a very fussy teacher go after me about this till I learnt it correctly, inner knees pressed together. And with the legs THAT engaged, there is no way I could hold that long. It kills me to hold for five breaths. And with the legs that engaged it is more difficult for me than the hatha version where you just whack your legs over your head :-)
Ashtanga shalabasana is very difficult.
Not saying yours don't look great Grimm, just saying I'd always go for quality over quantity (length) in this type of pose. It's the kind of pose where it's too easy to kid yourself.
I mean - the ashtanga versions are the lazy versions?!?!?!
Come and see my teacher, hahahahaha.....
I should have included that krishnamacharya/Jois/kapo pic in the post Claudia, might add it.
It is interesting, did you see dtw's comment yesterday on the Sharth post
'I read an interview with B.K.S. Iyengar in a Yoga & Health magazine the other day and he mentioned how his practice had changed with age; how he now holds less poses for longer times - the Rishi Series? '
I think it's more interesting to explore the breathing patterns in these long stays though (VK style) Just to be able to stay in a posture for a long time seems a wasted opportunity...hang did i say that in the post already? that said i like how some of the postures open up more as you get past twenty, thirty breaths, baddha konasana an obvious example .
Wonder if Sharath will turn turns round and say sometime, 'Oh yes, the Rishi series, That's what my grandfather practiced for the last thirty year'.
: ) I know, was teasing about the lazy bit. Didn't mean the Viparita Salabhasana but the one with the hands off the mat, arms outstretched and the flying locust which is a bugger. I remember you saying about Cary being tough on knees together but didn't you also say that hardly anyone in Mysore seems to be practicing that way and yet not getting stopped....
need to get on and practice now, espresso drunk, back later.
One thing i do want to add though. i don't think it's a question of quantity over quality. In a long stay the objective is different and perhaps it makes sense to approach an asana differently, not saying the techniques should be lazy but that what counts as a full expression in a short stay might be different in a long stay. Or The dwi pad sirsasana for instance, the way most of us, including Iyengar seem to practice it (and even Sharath in his Dwip pada entry to Supta Kurmasana) puts some pressure on the back of the head which is OK for five breaths perhaps, you can counter that with your back strength but for fifty breaths I want Sharaths version where there doesn't seem to be any pressure on the neck at all.
I take my legs quite high and there's quite the back stretch in my regular salabhasana but for a fifty breath version perhaps I don't need to take the legs as high or stretch the back as deeply (yet should still aim to keep the legs together and straight). It's interesting stuff to explore. i remember Ramaswami saying that the old yogis loved to experiment.
Just realized i put 50 breaths for the salabhasanas, that should have been 25 each for A & B 50 in total not each, my bad.
Just posting Day 6 which will include a salabasana A & B video.
OK well, yeah there's a lot to comment on there, too much, but these are at least the kinds of questions to be asked.... agree about postures like baddha konasana, they open out nicely. Then you are basically doing a yin practice....
Guruji didn't practice asana for many years before he died, he gave up asana practice after the death if his wife.
And for the record I haven't been watching people's shalabasanas here much, i haven't seen many from the foyer and the rest of the time it's drishti! It was more of a general observation from assisting at home, teaching hatha classes etc.
I find it kind of funny how by extending your stay and breaths in each asana, people try and say it is a different style of yoga. Yoga is yoga, no, be it 5, 8, 25 or 50 breaths. Why the hang ups on defining ashtanga by whether you stay for only 5 breaths. It's a real point of contention in the yoga cliques, I guess. At any rate, I find many similarities between you, Grimmly, and Iyengar, since you are doing your own research into yoga. You are doing the real thing and find out what works based on your own investigates. Keep up the good wor!
It's a bit childish to use the derogatory word 'cliques' to refer to the different traditions or lineages.... in this era where anyone can do yoga teacher training in little more than a weekend, start teaching anything they want and call it whatever they like, those of us who do follow a tradition would just like to keep it straight what that tradition actually entails.
I don't believe anyone ever came out against experimentation..... it's a matter of defining terms and questioning how other approaches can best be applied. Some of us have to keep it real and ask questions, since the reality is that people ARE learning yoga via the Internet.
I think your right Anon, yoga IS yoga most of the division just seems to centre around how we approach asana, the pretty shapes. Cliques was a little provokative but I see why you felt the need to throw it in there. Styles I think is a better expression, which you also use, seems much more appropriate than the grand use of tradition and lineage which I've always been uncomfortable with. Ashtanga, what fifty, sixty years old (people have been stressing to me lately that it's not the same as K's Yoga Makaranda), a tradition feels like it should be older somewhat
Hey Susan... I dunno about the whole yin/yang characterisation of asana, is it that useful, tended to be uncomfortable with that too.
Yes it is about questioning, now that is a good definition of Yoga
Learning from the internet...really : ) I'm a home practitioner, did I learn from the internet? Not those 5000 hours, spent on the mat, (about to 5002, still practicing, still learning), let alone the time reading books often sourced on the internet, and thinking about them?
The internet, a book, Sharath pointing at a picture on the wall "do it that way' much the same. It's how you then question what you pick up, your own experimentation and experience and embodiment of knowledge.
Give me the freedom of the net over dogma every time.
But were we talking about learning an asana sequence on the net or yoga? Are we really going to get into how the net differs from a book, dvd, a teacher walking around pulling you into shapes or one spending hours explaining the nature of practice to you.
In the end it's just you on a mat or in a little space, do whatever the hell you want in that space, jump up and down on the spot if you like then sit down quietly for a bit. Now just turn up there every day for an hour or two and see what happens over time.
Eh, forget it..... I'm off your blog again for awhile, too busy doing yoga in Mysore to get wound up in questions on the Internet.
But when you make statements like you do in the next post, like 'I don't do it the ashtanga way because it makes you crane your neck back' or whatever it was.... when in fact you're completely mistaken about what 'the ashtanga way' is because you've never had a teacher.... then of course it's provocative. Since lineage and 'cliques' make you so uncomfortable, perhaps you'd be better off just frankly calling it free-styling and not misrepresenting the teachings of others.....
Happy practices in any case. :-)
fair enough Susan though the actual quote is
'I use the Vinyasa Krama drishti for this asana here (looking straight ahead), don't see the point of looking up and squishing the back of the neck for five breaths let alone 25.'
But your right, as I said I was mistaken about drishti, had the Sweeny book in front of me. I'm sure the gaze is is still Nasagrai but his head is thrown dramatically back, he had a teacher no?
I do actually call my blog 'Ashtanga Vinyasa Krama at Home', think I'm making it pretty clear what it is and isn't.
but the prejudices in that comment Susan...
'too busy doing yoga in Mysore'
'because you've never had a teacher'
'better off just frankly calling it free-styling'
Me I've just spent this morning exploring Asana for a couple of hours followed by forty minutes pranayama, fifteen minutes japa meditation and a little yoga Sutra chanting, Oh and I was just reading an excellent section on Classical Samkhya in the bath p197-206 in Larson, it's on knowledge and tradition I highly recommend it. But hey I just do this at home without a teacher, it doesn't count.
Happy practice to you too, we'll fight over lunch when you get back then we can get another round in every time we go too far so no harms done : )
OK I lied I'm still here lol
I just don't want to get drawn into long responses to long comments when I have my own blog to write + Sanskrit homework!!
But a couple of things are bugging me, so I just want to say - there's no need to get so defensive about your practice! No one is attacking your practice!
As always, I only have a problem with the way you disseminate information. To be honest it smacks of someone who's received one too many laudatory comments and spent time gazing fondly at the Stats page.
Do whatever you like, jump up and down on the spot and call it yoga? I know what Sharath would say to that because he's been pretty clear. I wonder if Ramaswami, Iyengar, Krishnamacharya would agree with you?
:-/
FB me a date when you're free! I'm back a week Saturday. Evening or weekend would be much better for me than weekday lunch, I know you're busy and want to spend time with M, but if there's a time you're free, let's diarise it...
Cheers :-)
yeah lets do that, no point going back and forth, see you when you get back.
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