Great news, seems we wont have to wait as long as feared for Gregor's meditation book. I'm currently nearing the end of my first reading of his one on Pranayama, review to come.
Down below is Gregor's FB status update from this morning on how the body and practice changes as one gets older.
This isn't just a question of physical capability of course, recently I've been drawn more towards extended pranayama and meditation practice causing me to cut back on the asana. However, there's still this nagging voice that keeps whispering in my ear, telling me that I have a few years of good asana in me yet and that I should be making the most of it.
I've been trying to work a post all week about 'letting go', letting go of the fancy asana, of the high level of strength and fitness that comes with a full on advanced asana practice, letting go of the cool kids club.... and just accepting that a strong asana focus is a preparatory stage as far as traditional ashtanga is concerned, pranayama too, sooner or later your likely to want to cut those limbs back a little ( or a lot) to make time for your meditation practice.....may as well be sooner rather than later.
'...When once a fair proficiency has been attains in asana and pranayama, the aspirant to Dhyana has to regulate the time to be spent on each and choose the particular Asanas and pranayama which will have the most effect in strengthening the higher organs and centres of perception and thus aid him in attaining Dhyana.' Krishnamacharya
Anyway, here's Gregor....
"15 hours ago ·
I completed the 2nd draft of my new meditation book, called Yoga Meditation.
I will now start to here post content.
I got requests from a few students to write about how body and practice changes as one gets older as people seem to struggle to keep up practice. Important here is to realize that asana practice was designed to support practice of meditation and pranayama. As you get older you need to shift emphasis from asana practice to the higher limbs. Try to limit your asana practice to 90 minutes and spend the rest on higher yogic practices.
Physical problems often result from students not graduating on to the higher limbs. It’s the higher limbs that will give you the realization that you are not the body but the consciousness, the self. Once that has been attained the ambition to flog the body in asana practice, will disappear and with it many of the physical problems.
(passage from Yoga Meditation): If asana is understood on a deep level then we will, once in the posture, produce the counteraction that propelled us into the posture. When done on all levels of live this method leads to mastery, that it going with the flow, being in the zone or being in the Tao. Rather than manifesting an enormous force that breaks through the barriers of the world and must in the end produce our own un-doing we move through life without force but using existing forces. This way no counterforce is ever necessary to manifest against us.
This principle is beautifully expressed in Chuang Tzu’s “The Dexterous Butcher”. The story is a bit unsavoury for vegetarians but the message is deep nevertheless. Here, Lord Wen-hui watches and questions his cook who for 19 years uses the same blade to carve up thousands of oxen without sharpening it. The cook explains that rather than hacking through the oxen, he first pays respect in his heart, meets the oxen with his whole consciousness and he cares for the Way. He then moves with great subtlety, finds the right spot, almost effortlessly leans against the oxen and suddenly it is as if the whole oxen falls apart by itself. (end of quote)
Your body is that oxen. Rather than hacking through it with much energy and effort, first pay respect for it in your heart. It is not an animal that you need to conquer and beat into submission. Meet your body with your whole consciousness and treat it as an expression of the Divine creative force (prana). Do not think that you only want to get that backbend, that leg-behind-head or which ever posture it is. Understand that your body is the crystallized history of your past thoughts, emotions and actions. Its not just meat, but more than you think it is.
Move with great subtlety and find the right spots where you are holding on. Because it is you that is holding on, not somebody else. And now comes the secret: After with having identified with great subtlety the right spot, lean against it almost effortless and without ambition, just by shifting your body weight within your body. The result will be that your body will open almost effortless.
Important though is that you do not practice for the results, for the outcome. Do not practice goal-oriented as that will lead to more and more injury. As Lord Krishna says in the Gita, surrender the outcomes of your actions.
I found that it takes many years and decades to open to inner intelligence and intelligence of the body. Good news is that intelligence grows as one gets older. Years ago scientists thought that we get dumber as we get older but this has now been proven wrong. There is something called the neuroplasticity of the brain. It means that as long as you keep learning, your brain will become more and more powerful.
As I am getting older, I found that I am using less and less energy and time to achieve in my practice more and more. Recently I read a sign in a café’ saying, ‘Drink coffee. Do more stupid things, faster and with more energy.’ A was amazed that the sign expressed reciprocally what happened in my practice (without coffee). Using much less energy, I do less things in a smarter way but the outcome is much more profound. But like Lord Wen-hui’s butcher I first had to learn to listen to my body.
The good news is that yoga gets better as it goes on. I found the first 10 years tough. The second decade sort of happened by auto-pilot, meaning it required no additional effort. But only in the third decade the harvest began. Keep hanging in there. It will get better and better.
I had a fantastic time teaching in Manila. Heartfelt thanks to the people of the Philippines, who welcomed me so openly. I found them to be some of the friendliest people that I ever visited. I very much look forward to returning to Manila in the future.
I will stay in Perth for the next almost three months until we got to Bali to teach our 200-hour teacher training. Here we will present the essence of our 35 years of research and practice. If you are interested please request our prospectus at http://www.8limbs.com/teacher-training
If you are currently reading or have read my Pranayama book and found it helpful please do not hesitate to give it a review at your favourite online retailer. I put an enormous amount of work into my books and your reviews help to circulate the books and keep me going.
Hari OM
Gregor"
UPDATE 30/7/12
This from Paul Harvey oh fb this morning
I'd have finished it sooner but he provides all these references to texts I can't help but chase down and then there are the exercises and all these things you want to try out.....
Down below is Gregor's FB status update from this morning on how the body and practice changes as one gets older.
This isn't just a question of physical capability of course, recently I've been drawn more towards extended pranayama and meditation practice causing me to cut back on the asana. However, there's still this nagging voice that keeps whispering in my ear, telling me that I have a few years of good asana in me yet and that I should be making the most of it.
I've been trying to work a post all week about 'letting go', letting go of the fancy asana, of the high level of strength and fitness that comes with a full on advanced asana practice, letting go of the cool kids club.... and just accepting that a strong asana focus is a preparatory stage as far as traditional ashtanga is concerned, pranayama too, sooner or later your likely to want to cut those limbs back a little ( or a lot) to make time for your meditation practice.....may as well be sooner rather than later.
'...When once a fair proficiency has been attains in asana and pranayama, the aspirant to Dhyana has to regulate the time to be spent on each and choose the particular Asanas and pranayama which will have the most effect in strengthening the higher organs and centres of perception and thus aid him in attaining Dhyana.' Krishnamacharya
Anyway, here's Gregor....
"15 hours ago ·
I completed the 2nd draft of my new meditation book, called Yoga Meditation.
I will now start to here post content.
I got requests from a few students to write about how body and practice changes as one gets older as people seem to struggle to keep up practice. Important here is to realize that asana practice was designed to support practice of meditation and pranayama. As you get older you need to shift emphasis from asana practice to the higher limbs. Try to limit your asana practice to 90 minutes and spend the rest on higher yogic practices.
Physical problems often result from students not graduating on to the higher limbs. It’s the higher limbs that will give you the realization that you are not the body but the consciousness, the self. Once that has been attained the ambition to flog the body in asana practice, will disappear and with it many of the physical problems.
(passage from Yoga Meditation): If asana is understood on a deep level then we will, once in the posture, produce the counteraction that propelled us into the posture. When done on all levels of live this method leads to mastery, that it going with the flow, being in the zone or being in the Tao. Rather than manifesting an enormous force that breaks through the barriers of the world and must in the end produce our own un-doing we move through life without force but using existing forces. This way no counterforce is ever necessary to manifest against us.
This principle is beautifully expressed in Chuang Tzu’s “The Dexterous Butcher”. The story is a bit unsavoury for vegetarians but the message is deep nevertheless. Here, Lord Wen-hui watches and questions his cook who for 19 years uses the same blade to carve up thousands of oxen without sharpening it. The cook explains that rather than hacking through the oxen, he first pays respect in his heart, meets the oxen with his whole consciousness and he cares for the Way. He then moves with great subtlety, finds the right spot, almost effortlessly leans against the oxen and suddenly it is as if the whole oxen falls apart by itself. (end of quote)
Your body is that oxen. Rather than hacking through it with much energy and effort, first pay respect for it in your heart. It is not an animal that you need to conquer and beat into submission. Meet your body with your whole consciousness and treat it as an expression of the Divine creative force (prana). Do not think that you only want to get that backbend, that leg-behind-head or which ever posture it is. Understand that your body is the crystallized history of your past thoughts, emotions and actions. Its not just meat, but more than you think it is.
Move with great subtlety and find the right spots where you are holding on. Because it is you that is holding on, not somebody else. And now comes the secret: After with having identified with great subtlety the right spot, lean against it almost effortless and without ambition, just by shifting your body weight within your body. The result will be that your body will open almost effortless.
Important though is that you do not practice for the results, for the outcome. Do not practice goal-oriented as that will lead to more and more injury. As Lord Krishna says in the Gita, surrender the outcomes of your actions.
I found that it takes many years and decades to open to inner intelligence and intelligence of the body. Good news is that intelligence grows as one gets older. Years ago scientists thought that we get dumber as we get older but this has now been proven wrong. There is something called the neuroplasticity of the brain. It means that as long as you keep learning, your brain will become more and more powerful.
As I am getting older, I found that I am using less and less energy and time to achieve in my practice more and more. Recently I read a sign in a café’ saying, ‘Drink coffee. Do more stupid things, faster and with more energy.’ A was amazed that the sign expressed reciprocally what happened in my practice (without coffee). Using much less energy, I do less things in a smarter way but the outcome is much more profound. But like Lord Wen-hui’s butcher I first had to learn to listen to my body.
The good news is that yoga gets better as it goes on. I found the first 10 years tough. The second decade sort of happened by auto-pilot, meaning it required no additional effort. But only in the third decade the harvest began. Keep hanging in there. It will get better and better.
I had a fantastic time teaching in Manila. Heartfelt thanks to the people of the Philippines, who welcomed me so openly. I found them to be some of the friendliest people that I ever visited. I very much look forward to returning to Manila in the future.
I will stay in Perth for the next almost three months until we got to Bali to teach our 200-hour teacher training. Here we will present the essence of our 35 years of research and practice. If you are interested please request our prospectus at http://www.8limbs.com/teacher-training
If you are currently reading or have read my Pranayama book and found it helpful please do not hesitate to give it a review at your favourite online retailer. I put an enormous amount of work into my books and your reviews help to circulate the books and keep me going.
Hari OM
Gregor"
UPDATE 30/7/12
This from Paul Harvey oh fb this morning
18 comments:
I feel like I'm swimming against the (common belief) tide, but I only love asana more and more, it seems. Honestly, I don't see where the rigors of practice would be beyond the capacity of someone in their 60s or even 70s, provided they've been at it for a good while. Maybe I just have a skewed view because I know old people who still have very strong physical practices (rock climbers, bikers, tennis players, etc.). I wonder if pranayama and meditation will now be seen as "evidence" of higher spiritual achievement (as advanced asana used to be seen).
hi Karen. That's kind of why I added my bit about it not being just about 'physical capability'. I've found practice gets easier, age hasn't felt an issue yet, less muscle, more technique, I seem to shift my weight better, use my breath more effectively....
For me it's more about time, If I want to spend more time on pranayama then I either have to get up earlier or practice less asana and if less asana then choose which asana I do practice more carefully. Over the last two years my strong asana focus has made it difficult to spend as much time on pranayama as I've wanted, felt I've been short changing it.
Still love asana, have Richard Freeman's workshop next month, love how he brings much of what's going on in Pranayama practice (just done his online pranayama course) into his asana practice, lots to play with there.
'evidence of higher spiritual achievement', hope not. It's all just practice no, whether it's jumping about on a rubber mat in your pants, sittin' and breathin' or just sitting, it's all just practice, just a different or narrower focus perhaps. Nobody makes a big deal about 'spiritual achievement' in the Zen and Vipassana communities (or do they).
Always nagged at me a little how the ...meditation aspect of yoga gets left out, we practice asana and perhaps pranayama but then turn to Zen or Vipassana/mindfulness ( I was doing the same), want to get to grips more with the yoga approach to meditation, understand what's going on with it a little more...find a way in. So much work done on Zen and mindfulness in the west we seem to have hardly touched antaranga sadhana, (the last three meditation limbs), Aranya's Commentary on YS was a bit of a revelation.
Sorry, rambling
That said. I do think there's a serious discussion to be had about approaching ashtanga as you get older. Though I'm not sure I want to get inot it here.
Pattabhi Jois Ashtanga and it's fixed sequences (wasn't fixed before it seems - see yogasanagalu), is only what thirty, forty years old. Those who stated with it in the 70's and 80's, in what their twenties, are now coming to an age where they've been putting their bodies through this kind of practice for thirty years. Do you stick with the advanced series, cut back, work on 'Rishi series', slow it down and stay longer in asana, change the sequences about or stick with it as is.
i think they're interesting questions.
For me advanced asanas have never represented evidence of high spiritual enlightement, although of course I wish - sometimes - I were able to do circus contorsions. I suppose perhaps you can argue it is a bit like in the Aesop fable, where the fox not being able to reach the ripe grapes dismissed it as not interesting, but anyway...
For sure one thing David Swenson said at one short TT I took with him stuck in my mind in a very enlightening manner. He was commenting about the jump forward/back efforts everybody makes, and said "well... being able to do tit will not make you a better person anyway". How true.
I found it interesting that recently I felt my best just doing the tadasana sequence and even apanasana feels magic. I know this is going perhaps too far but it gave me an idea as to how my practice has changed, and how quickly.
Anthony. We seem to have similar stories in that we both started practicing yoga quite late and following very energetic practices, we then moved towards a more balanced approach (Ramaswami for you, Desikachar's school for me) and we are now being pulled towards the higher limbs. Is it because we are already 'old' you think?And reaching detachment is perhaps easier? have been wondering this recently.
With regards to your comment on yoga vs vipassana meditation, I totally agree. Perhaps the vipassana style meditation appeals to Western minds more, it is just easier to 'reach' for us than visualisations, colors, divinities, light, what not. I have been attempting more of this visualisation stuff recently and I can tell my experiences are pretty powerful, even at the lower levels I can achieve as a beginner.
At age 44 I'm in my first year of practice and really enjoying being strong. The lift-ups and jumpbacks are transforming my body and I love how I feel more balanced and stable. I'm still completely amazed and mesmerized by the beauty of the asana, and look forward to more...more...more. I know this road will take me to another road eventually. David R talks about how the meditation is in the practice of the asana somewhat, but it is also in the rest of your life where you have to carve out the structure and space to maintain a daily practice. It is like an ongoing meditation as you begin to build a life around a practice and allow that practice to transform you.
I'm finding it very hard to 'get into' doing pranayama. When do you start feeling any benefits? I bought Maeheles book on Pranayama after seeing it on here and I'm enjoying it so far, haven't come to any practices yet though. I want to have pranayama as part of my practice badly, but I just can't seem to make it work for me :( Any advice would be welcome :)
Hi Chiara
Wanted to pick up on your expression 'a more balanced approach'. I think Ashtanga can be practiced in a balanced way, strong breath and bandha focus in every posture, really make the most of the finishing sequence, those fifteen long slow breaths in padmasana at the end, it's all there....kind of and many teachers focus on that approach it seems. Easy to get wrapped up in the dynamics of the sequence though and lose sight of the stillness but then that's the challenge of that style. But I guess by balance your really talking about integrating the other limbs into the practice, pranayama, pratayahara, meditation or at least concentration practice. Vinyasa Krama focuses on all the limbs equally almost from the start and that's a big difference. Asana became less of an event and when you removed the sequence aspect, advanced postures merely becoming an extension of the preceding asana, then there's a big shift in how you see your asana practice. For me anyway.
Perhaps, to generalise, there is an age element, being older one is perhaps more open to ...stillness, taking things slower, being in less of a rush but then again for awhile I was thinking I'm getting on a bit and need to move on to the next sequence quick while my body holds up, no doubt it depends a lot on your character.
re vipassana/mindfulness 'v' Yoga Meditation, I think the west has just worked with Zen and Vipassana longer, found ways to appropriate it, the whole Suzuki beginner mind of the west thing. With yoga we've focussed mainly on asana not enough work done yet on yoga meditation, it'll change of course...be interesting to see how it comes out the other side, what we'll end up doing with it...just hope it doesn't become another method of self psychoanalysis.
Still love asana here too DS, hard cutting it back a bit to focus on other aspects but it seemed timely. I spent five years with a strong asana focus to my practice, big transformations physically, good to feel fit and strong and healthy again. Now it's a case of balancing all that on account of time available so I can focus on the other limbs equally ...what level of fitness, how strong do I want to be. Am I preparing for a triathlon....
Hi Anthony
yes you got it, I was referring to the other limbs. In fact, I have always experienced ashtanga vinyasa the way you described, I normally get by the end of the first series in a state of trance which is not tiredness, but something different, meditative. I have always tried to complete my breaths to the end of each phase inhale/exhale, even if it means less breaths and I agree with that being crucial to the effect of the practice. I think I was lucky that not knowing much about ashtanga vinyasa when I started my self-practice I picked Richard Freeman's DVDs....
Micqui.. for me effects were immediate when I started, especially Nadi Shodan and Ujjayi. One Pranayam that I need to work more on is Sitali. It does not do anything for me, not sure why/whether because I do something wrong or just is not for me... again down to character as Anthony said.
As for excessive introversion... it's a risk for sure! Perhaps being aware of it already helps!
Hey Micqui
hell I'm not sure what the benefits are anyway...know what they're supposed to be, for me I'm settling with a different kind of focus and attention, perhaps other stuff is going on as well, jury's still out...
You could jump to 'The complete breathing cycle' on page 215 of Maehle's book and get going with that while you continue with the early important chapters.
But of course your doing pranayama already in your Ashtanag practice Sharath is wrong when he says ujayii isn't pranayama. Well in a sense he's right. He saying I think, that true pranayama includes kumbhaka (breath retention) and we dont stop and hold the breath in ashtanga. BUT if we're being anatomically/physiologically literal then there is always a micro kumbhaka as the body changes from the inhalation to the exhalation, can't avoid it. So we can just play with that and extend those micro kumbhakas a little to one or two or five seconds...
In your regular padmasana, in finishing, where your working with all the bandhas, start counting the breath. Inhale for five and exhale for ten seconds, do that for a few breaths. Then inhale for five, engage jalandhara bandha (chin lock), swallow, hold for five and exhale for ten engaging mula bandha strongly at the end of the exhalation but without really holding the breath for now. try those exercises for five breaths each, a couple of regular breaths in between.
if you want to get really fancy and jump ahead. Inhale ujjayi for five, jalandhara and hold for five, then close the right nostril and breath out through the left to a count of ten. mula bandha, inhale for five, close left and hold for five then exhale for ten through the left.
That should be plenty to be going on with until you get further on into the book, pretty much what your doing already in regular ashatanga just with the longer exhale and a short breath retention.
Inhaling through one nostril gets a little more complicated as you need to check your breathing cleanly through both nostrils otherwise you can get a little blocked and get a little anxious which spoils it a little. best to stick to ujjayi inhalation at first and alternaing exhalation.
Start with the fifteen breaths you do in padmasana normally, extend it to five minutes and then perhaps to ten, that should be plenty to be going on with at first, again until you get further into Maehle.
Oh and mentally while all that is going on focus on the heart area, just explore keeping your attention there , later you'll use that and extend it but at first it's tricky keeping the attention fixed where you want to.
forgot to say.. the meditative state came of course after the first times I started following those DVDs, after the time when I would just freeze in a mixture of panic/self-bemusement thinking I would never be able to do that stuff, when I realised that it is OK if I still cannot do everything! And after I came to the realisation, as I said before somewhere else, that that practice works magic for me on some days, amd on others it just increases my vrtti!
I took a workshop with Danny P a few months ago and we spent about an hour breathing through pranayama, nadi shodana, bastrika, surya bhedana and sitali. Since then I've practiced some (about 15 minutes) pranayama before asana about twice a week, or whenever I have the luxury of time. If time is an issue I let the breathing in the asana practice be my breathing practice.
I've noticed some immediate benefits. Because my asana practice is fairly new my breathing still gets restricted in a lot of the poses. The pranayama is almost shockingly deep and steady. It brings my attention sharply to Mula and Uddiyana Bandha because you suck in the abdomen. This awarenss of the locks seems to stick with me a lot of the time throughout the day. And the deep, steady breathing likewise. Which is a good thing as I'm having to go out practice driving with my son for the next few months....aaaaggh!!!
I sometimes wonder what my asana practice will be like in my sixties. I wonder what Nancy G's practice is like....from what I can deduce it is still very strong. But it seems normal and natural that a lot of people turn more to meditation and let a lot of the asana go.
But really, if we all just make sure to practice every day, we'll know a heck of a lot more twenty years from now. There's really no wrong way to go -- if you practice hard every day.
Sorry micqui, my iPad typing is awful, that shoudld have been exhale for ten through the RIGHT (switching back and forth on each succeeding exhalation.
DY, did Danny give his reasons for putting the pranayama at the beginning, before asana, Tim Miller does the same I believe. I assume it came from Pattabhi Jois . My understanding is that Krishnamacharya would have you do it AFTER asana before going on in to Pratyahara and then the mediatative limbs which always made sense to me. That said after a full on Ashtanga practice I'd tend to be hot and sweaty and not that inclined to sitting on a sweaty towel in sweaty shorts for pranayama.
In Santorini I was getting up early and after sleeping on a virtual camp bed my back was pretty stiff so I practiced pranayama first then to give my back a chance to loosen up. juyst curious if he said anything about it.
Strongly agree with this bit Karen
"But really, if we all just make sure to practice every day, we'll know a heck of a lot more twenty years from now"
not sure about this bit though
"There's really no wrong way to go"
Surely some ways to go are more suitable, more appropriate than others, discernment No?
PS not suggesting for one minute that I've got it right or have a clue what the hell I'm talking about, exploring and working it all out same as everyone else. Just following the nose.
I did ask him this question and he said you could do either, but he suggested the pranayama would get you ready for asana, and get you focused.
BTW he is a very sweet soul. He emphasised that he is in no way an expert and does not want to be thought of as an authority. He said it is all about freedom, and developing your own home practice. He showed us some very interesting poses taken from Egyptian art, and some variations on the tradition ashtanga standing poses.
Thanks DS, have always wondered about that. Danny used to come to Oxford regularly, just down the road from me, I should see if he still does and try and make one of his workshops.
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